Discuss the Boy Scouts

Don't be afraid to get your son involved in Scouting. Unfortunately, I think the Boy Scouts have been unfairly singled out for their position on this issue. Remember, the Boy Scouts is not exactly an agent of social change.

The fact is that the Boy Scouts is not filled with a bunch of flaming homophobics. Rather it is filled with the people who live around you in your neighborhood. The fact is that sexuality really isn't an issue in the program at all. There is no mention of gays pro or con anywhere in the program. As a gay parent, you are perfectly welcome to be actively engaged in your son's Scouting program (you just can't be registered in a leadership position).

Perhaps the stance seems a bit outdated and behind the times, and perhaps it in fact is. But the Boy Scouts is not the place to fight this fight. They are but a reflection of the society that they serve. Rather than beat up an organization that does so much good for youth and the community, let's try to change the hearts and minds of society. Then the Boy Scouts will follow.

Interesting points have been raised for several years - primarily by those OUTSIDE of the organization who feel the need to attack one thing rather than invest the effort to create an organization of the own design…

The Anti-BSA crowd continues to push their culture on those in Scouting, raising the battle cry of the “Culture wars”…. When did Scouting EVER state, imply, or otherwise suggest that Scouting welcomed gay leaders? DALE? Was he a BOY or an ADULT when he took the court case? Seems to me that he was an ADULT.

“Culture wars” Part 2 - In more than 30 years as a volunteer I have NEVER had a mother say “I do not want my son in your Cub Pack or Scout Troop because you do NOT have a gay leader” - - - In fact I have had many parents say “the day you bring in the gay leaders is the day we take our sons OUT”

Participation in Scouting is down from the 60-70% of boys in the 1950s-1960s to probably 20-25% now. There have been a few other changes in society since then, too. More Little League, more fall baseball, more soccer, more karate & martial arts, more band, more, more, more - the very issue that has been in the news so much lately - parents are “over-programming” the lives of their “hyper-achiever” children. Add to that the plethora of video games, computer games, and other legal (and otherwise) diversions. I suggest that these are more “to blame” for the decrease in youth in Scouting than the decades old belief in a supreme being and decades old “no gay leaders” stance. The Girl Scouts USA have seen similar declines (their Annual Reports are available online), yet GS USA embraces homosexuality and atheism – does that not indicate the issue of declining numbers is NOT the result of the BOY Scouts membership policies?

Volunteerism & community involvement of adults, families and individual youth as a whole has dropped dramatically throughout the country. You cannot blame the incredible drop in volunteerism that has caused Kiwanis Clubs, Lions Clubs, volunteer fire departments and rescue squads - as well as in Scouting - on the BSA.

BSA has been bashed for being a “Religious organization” - HMM - But which religion? From first hand experience in a camp, Boy Scouts need very generic non-sectarian blessings or graces at meals - As I recall, more than 4 dozen faiths - from Catholic to Jewish, Islam to Hindu, Unitarian to Buddhist, as well as some I cannot pronounce, offer awards to youth through Scouting - not Scouting awards - but awards presented by those faiths….

Scouting is NOT for every boy - and that has NOTHING to do with belief in a supreme being nor with Scouting not allowing gay leaders.

Some of us are DISGUSTING with the abandonment of values that today's media and educational institutions embrace - and then these institutions and media outlet wonder why they are viewed with such distain by Americans.

You said: "They do not allow gays or atheists to be leaders in their troops -- usually. I know, however, that this is not ALWAYS the case."

Can you point to any time when the organization allowed, much less embraced, gays or atheists as leaders? I do not mean "I know someone who knew someone whose said he thought his brother's friend was gay and was a leader; or same for an atheist" - I mean someone who was not trying to fly "under the radar", someone whose membership applications was processed and accepted by the BSA (not by the local troop or pack) with the KNOWLEDGE the person was gay or atheist.

My point is NOT a judgment on gays or atheists - my point is WHEN (FACTUAL CASE, not hearsay or anecdotal report) was it, as you suggest, that gay leaders or atheists were allowed to serve as registered leaders?

I have been a leader with the Boy Scouts for 12 years. I agree on the Troop or Pack level this is not an issue. We do not discuss sexual orientation, dating or any related topic. We are also not a religious organization. We have scouts of all faiths-Buddhist, Muslim. What we do teach is outdoor skills. How to work in a group. Self reliance. Duty to God (in a broad since) Duty to self and Duty to country. I would say that 50% of our time is spent preparing and going camping, canoeing and Backpacking and the other 50% is spent preparing and performing community Service.

When did Scouting EVER state, imply, or otherwise suggest that Scouting welcomed gay leaders? DALE vs BSA? Was he a BOY or an ADULT when he took the court case? Seems to me that he was an ADULT.

In more than 30 years as a volunteer I have NEVER had a mother say “I do not want my son in your Cub Pack or Scout Troop because you do NOT have a gay leader” - - - In fact I have had many parents say “the day you bring in the gay leaders is the day we take our sons OUT”

Is this stance on gay and atheist adult leaders the reason Scouting has fewer boys than years ago? Nonsense. Participation in Scouting is down from the 60-70% of boys in the 1950s-1960s to probably 20-25% now. There have been a few other changes in society since then, too. More Little League, more fall baseball, more soccer, more karate & martial arts, more band, more, more, more - the very issue that has been in the news so much lately - parents are “over-programming” the lives of their “hyper-achiever” children. Add to that the plethora of video games, computer games, and other legal (and otherwise) diversions. I suggest that these are more “to blame” for the decrease in youth in Scouting than the decades old belief in a supreme being and decades old “no gay leaders” stance. The Girl Scouts USA have seen similar declines (their Annual Reports are available online), yet GS USA embraces homosexuality and atheism – does that not indicate the issue of declining numbers is NOT the result of the BOY Scouts membership policies?

It goes for adults, too. Volunteerism & community involvement of adults, families and individual youth as a whole has dropped dramatically throughout the country. You cannot blame the incredible drop in volunteerism that has caused Kiwanis Clubs, Lions Clubs, volunteer fire departments and rescue squads - as well as in Scouting - on the BSA.

People are free to create organization that reflect their values - Gay and atheist families are free to do the same - what I detest are these "outsiders" coming in to an organization I have served as a volunteer for, that I have donated many dollars to, and thrusting their view on me and on my family. Then, if I don't embrace their point of view, it is ME who is intolerant. What about these individuals' INTOLERANCE to me and my beliefs?

START A GROUP! Model it after Scouts is you wish - you are free to do so! Do a google search on Wicca - they have "scouting-like" groups.

I've been a Scout leader for over 10 years and this issue just hasn't been one at the local level. It's really more of an issue for the media and for some people who like to make an example of Scouting, for whatever personal reasons they have.

If you were to take away all of the Community service Scouts perform (food collections, Salvation Army bell-ringing, Eagle Scout projects, road clean-ups, Veterans Day/Memorial Day activities, etc etc) who would pick up the slack? It's a fact that volunteerism has dropped dramamtically in our country but Scouts activities mask a lot of that.

We don't teach intolerance or 'theism'. We teach citizenship, outdoor skills, self-reliance and community service, all while having fun. What's wrong with that?

Hi, I am a scoutmaster of a small troop. I was a scout in the 70's, and an adult scouter in the 00's. I think journalists look for the sensational and the controvercial to report on, in part because it sells and in part because the journalists see themselves as "agents of change."

The BSA stance on gays is that sexuality is not part of our program, that sex is something left to the family, their church and their schools. They do not want Scouting to be a forum on any sexual issue. That is at the national level. At the local level, we feel we have a duty to help boys develop in morals and character, in citizenship, and in fitnes of body, mind, and soul. We do not even address sexual issues. If a boy asked me about anything sexual, I would refer him to his parents, his pastor, and his teachers, in that order.

On the other hand, we as adults have to constantly be watching for sexual predators who eye our organization as the perfect hunting ground. I know that in the 70's the BSA was in danger of being sued out of existance because of hurt and broken boys, victims of sexual predators. At that time they cleaned house and instituted stringent youth protection policies and the structure to investigate perpetrators.

If it came right down to it, a gay man might be a leader at the local level if he really did the "Don't Ask, Don't tell" stuff. A gay activist could not do this. A gay parent might, if he were just doing the activities for his son, not for his "cause."

I suggest you go volunteer to work with a local troop and see what it is they do. Scouting is about the boys. It is not a soapbox for issues. It is not a political party. We are much more concerned that boys getting into the political process than choosing one side or another.

I would have to agree with my fellow Scoutmasters above. I am a Scoutmaster in the San Francisco Bay Area. Needless to say, we have a large LGBT community in this area, however, gays in scouting has never been an issue on the local level. Living in an urban setting, we have much bigger issues to deal with (school dropout rate, drugs, death, etc…) If I can help keep one kid on track, then I am doing my duty as a Scoutmaster. The way I see this, the rest of adult society can address the issue of sexual orientation. When you get the answer, let me know. In the meantime, I am going to take some kids camping!

BSA officially says that gays are not "morally straight" and belief in God is a basic value of Scouting see http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp. But their FAQ says nothing about all of the government support they receive in the form of government grants, rental subsidies, and public school sponsored units and recruiting. Those are the legal issues and BSA is on the wrong side here, they keep insisting they are entitled to government benefits even though they restrict their membership. As long as the national organization takes this stance it unethical to be a member of BSA even when the particular local unit looks the other way and doesn't enforce the national membership policy.